And if you listen for it, I think that's actually you're gonna be able to catch people going, wait, telling me to do this one thing, but you're also asking me to do the normal, which is still not quite that. So which one is it? And I I think that's a real source of of, you know, stress, not particularly good stress. So how do you counter that? By by listening By well, so, again, I I think it all comes back down to safety. If you if you then you can win because you're essentially giving the tools to your people to bring that information to you and ask for what they need. If you your organizational design is broken and you and that is not safe to do, I don't have a very good answer for you. I I was working with a a US company, and they they're doing this two week AI transformation, sprint effectively. And one of the things they're doing, which I think is amazing of that point, is they're having what they call a skeptic session, where the only people allowed in the room are the people who don't believe that AI is the future. With the idea being that they can bring together all of these thoughts and then, you know, have this this this, combined, discussion that they can then bring to to leadership. Was that something you you did as as frame it as an explicit sort of skeptics, roundtable, but that's that's actually a cool Mhmm. Approach. But we definitely tried to make room for that, like, the dissenting voice of this and being skipped and we said to people that were, be and get engaged to do that. So don't don't sit from a distance and go, I just the issues and the challenges and help us make this better and think that's been a really constructive way to go because like because everyone sees things differently. Everyone's got their own vantage point. And I and I think sometimes the person that's seeming like the most skeptical of of the thing is gonna have the insight that's actually gonna make Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna ask my question. So so I I named my open claw Marvin. And I named I named the Marvin because to have my agent not be sycophantic. And I thought, what better personality than a paranoid droid that hates humans? So this is contact with anybody? Just joking. I don't have eyes. But no. Really, here's my here's my question. I need to adjust my system prompt for my It's like if you're using a distiller with cars, it's like, what's your human sitting, Marvin? Oh, we gotta bring that down there. Seven. What should organizations stop doing that they currently convinced is working? What's the practice or process that So I I don't I don't buy into the I I So I think that organizations that have this kind of Are already shooting themselves in the foot. The here is the I mean, I I just think do what these guys did. I mean, they did the such such an excellent, allowing safe spaces for people to say, you know, you're asking me to use a tool that has essentially been its doing the following things to the environment. It's doing the following things to copyright My, so in my own personal situation, my, In in my family who really gets really cranky about people sleepwalking into using So I don't know. That's that's, I guess, be productivity part will come. I I don't know if I've missed, something on this at this conference, but that was something that was talked about really early on in in AI was that the the real ethics and the IP attribute attribution discussion of this. I think that's a conversation we need to keep having having. The tools are still here. They're not going away, but those problems are still here. They're not going away. What about? The one that comes to mind for me, and I don't have a clear opinion on this, but it's where my mind goes, like, we're coding edge to do a lot of things faster. We're now direction of things that are gonna take a platform where it needs to go. And and so I think that, like, maybe the way we do the upstream stuff, we're sort of getting to that now. And so I think, where Naveen's mind went. I I I started thinking about at our scale, in our space, there's this this huge we're working, we're gonna get destroyed by the great unknown tech giant. that people have to undergo in terms of embracing this and all the things that Navan talked And I think that this high urgency is only amplifying the pressure that people already feel to change. it's different, but do I even like this? Do I just wanna go put like, people are going through this change and then will, like, also do it faster. Go through that change faster. It's not helping. You know? So that's that's Yeah. There's there's a hysteresis of human emotions that you can't just force feed people through that process. They've got to feel those things and and move Yeah. And they gotta move in their own unique way. If you apply it on top of even apply the AI, really think about your workflows. That was came to me. But, I think, like, the whole ethics I think, if you're automating all these processes, are you automating people out of that how do you communicate to employees that actually we you're really important to us. AI is here to augment what you're doing. Yeah. So, like, the the culture of the company, ethics, their principles, do you stand by those? How does change your philosophy? there's the existential dread of losing that job, but there's also the point keep their job, but they're gonna be doing different things. And, you know, that applies not just to software engineers. That could apply to an somebody who thought their job was That's pretty good job, Marvin. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm pretty pleased with that. Okay. So, my next question, Steve, Naveen, I I liked how you were talking about using, AI as a way to, improve people's checks of how they were tracking against burnout. We had a a a a very quick discussion just before the panel, and trying to think of a way to to segue into it nicely, and I can't, so I'm just gonna smash straight into it. I I shared my experience, which is, as a neurodiverse person. I, I mentioned about introspection and how I really struggle with that, but what I do is I look for the behaviors that me approaching burnout. And these these emotions that I can't introspect what are the external indicators for for me reaching that. And I can use those as a as a signal I can I can calibrate against? And you mentioned how you were actually using the AI tooling to help you with that as well. Could you talk about that for in the skill that I have built for detect if I'm asking for the same thing over and over again. If I am, I I generally like doing the please and thank you thing. I know that's a waste of tokens, but, you know, I I I but when I get, like, detect really making a whole bunch of progress here. Is this an indication I I can can I can I nudge you in the direction of checking in on whether you need a break? Or maybe this is maybe, you know, maybe this isn't, working quite as you need it to. We can start again. We can do this again. I wonder if there's a And you're not necessarily trying to police people's something we should be checking in. Like, is there is there there's well, I'm sure there's ethical problems with that, moral problems with that, but the I wonder if there's a way to solve that problem. Yeah. Sorry. That that's something I've been thinking about a lot, and it's interesting that you sort of explore the ethical boundary of it, because my my team thinks it's creepy that I'm doing it. But thing I've been doing is because I have quite span of people that I directly manage. And, you know, we're working in a a heavily remote way. Which means that there's lots of transcripts flying around. Mhmm. And one thing I've noticed, I've been asking my so of, like, the Claude that I use as my assistant is, like, oh, I noticed that so and so seemed a little bit off yesterday. Is that just a me thing, or is there some something going on? And then what we do is we comb through the transcripts of the past. And say, yeah. So what I've done is I've I've trained a skill that's based on our culture and people science that, basically looks at sort of early indicators of people dropping off in engagement. oh, when I do, they still are they speaking optimistically about the future? Are they generative in that they're sparking ideas and sort of creating things? Or is it more short, sharp, focused dialogue? It's just responsive. Maybe it's more tactical. Tactical. And so yeah. I sort of use this to sort of, like, sort of check my own gut feel. Am I off about this? Like, is this blah blah blah? And just hired today? Or maybe something's happening? And that's led to some really interesting conversations where I might have more one on ones with a person or just inquire a bit more deeply about Can can I can I just follow-up? Do you are you able to is are are folks able to say, can I opt out? Yeah. Yeah. People people can I wanna do it. Yep. Yeah. So I think that's actually part of the like, that that signals safety. And actually then when your team wants to collaborate to lift everyone's well-being, then they can choose what they what they what they share and the degree to which it's anonymized or yeah. And I think in the the one on one connections with leaders and the the people, like, I think checking in on well-being regularly is is even more crucial than it's ever been. And, and having that genuine authentic safe space to be able to do that and building that relationship over time. I think that's really, really important. It's never been more important than it is right now. This is the this is one of the things I think we need to do more as leaders. Like, whatever you're doing, do it more. If you're doing one on ones, do them more. If you're doing check ins, do them more. Like, this is this is the time of transition in our industry where we need to care about our people. Way more than we ever did. Awesome. Well, thank you very much. Can we have another round of applause for our amazing So, thank you. And we will, thank start the wrap up. Thank you, Andrew. And Marmee, thanks very much. For those of you, physically in the room, I have a nice analog piece of paper to remind me of some things. There are still some things that we do, analog, which is is awesome. So, yeah. Once again, thank you, the speakers, for for doing this. Thank you all of the speakers in all of the sessions. I have very much enjoyed the last two days. in my voice. I I sound like gravelly podcast presenter Andrew as opposed to, sparky Andrew. That's an indicator how much I've enjoyed the last two days. The deeper my voice goes, the more I've enjoyed it. This sort of thing, we can all stand up here and shout into a oblivion with nobly listening, but that doesn't make as much of a difference to the industry and to the stuff we're trying to do as if you people actually turn up listen, ask us questions, speak to us, in the hallway track, and engage, and take what you're doing back to, the the places where you're gonna actually make a difference because of something you heard in the past couple of days. And lastly, of course, thanks to the speakers sorry, to the sponsors, because if if they don't sponsor, this sort of stuff doesn't happen. It really makes a big difference. I've been on, conference organization panels before, and, they make a massive difference. So, there are drinks for the next couple of hours. If you go to the transit bar, the drinks are provided by, Sonar Sauce in The Glass House. Is the instruction I've been given. I'm sure Google Maps or Apple Maps or Bing Maps, if you wanna use it, maybe not Bing Maps, but, the other two will know where Transit Bar is. If you wanna get in and actually, be make sure you bring your conference badge with you, that's how you'll get access to the event. And, to wrap up, make sure you keep an eye on, news from the conference. That's where you will get the information on how you get access to any of the recordings for the, talks you missed. Like I said at the beginning, I'm probably gonna spend the next week watching every single one of those, because I have missed so many that I really wanted to see. And that's also where you're gonna find out about what web directions and AI engineer is doing next. So once again, thank you for coming. Thanks to speakers. Sponsors, volunteers. You've all been amazing. I hope you have a really good time at the drinks, and I will see you at the next event. Thank you.